MentalPolyphonics
Smash monogamy.
In a recent conversation/discussion on how pro-choice affects the sexes differently, I came to an interesting conclusion. Pro-choice doesn’t include the male in the relationship. It gives woman the choice, with half the responsibility going to the man. Let’s look at this from all four possibilities:
Man for, Woman for
They both want the baby; great, they have a baby, God willing. If the man leaves she knows that she will get child support payments for the baby as a minimum, plus half the net worth and alimony if they are married. Yes there is a small percentage of children that are given to the man in the relationship.
Man for, Woman against
She decides not to have a baby; she can have an abortion and they likely break up.
Man against, Woman against
They want an abortion; she has an abortion. Who knows if the relationship works out.
Man against, Woman for
She has the baby; he prays to God. If he decides to break up with her he will have to pay child support payments for the baby as a minimum, plus half the net worth and alimony if they are married.
Worse off, I’m stuck with a baby I don’t want, but my morals will force me to look after it.
I know of two girls that are very close friends that both “accidentally” got pregos very close to each other. They were both supposedly on birth control. The first one may have been an accident, but the second one I don’t believe. This is a situation that I don’t want, and the real reason I wear a condom.
I thought this set a good overview. Also: there is very little...
tara
I hope you’re not serious but I suspect you are so I’ll respond as if you mean what you wrote.
I think that’s a pretty simplistic view – and a misogynist one as well. Most situations are far more complex. Most couples make these kinds of decisions together and women make sacrifices just as much as men do. I know women who have had children they didn’t necessarily want to keep, just as I know women who have had abortions they didn’t want to have. Your post makes women come across as selfish monsters, wresting complete control from their significant others regardless of the man’s feelings.
And to suggest that your friends meant to get pregnant and were not using birth control despite having said they were is unfair. Unless you have proof in the matter, it is unreasonable and frankly kind of a dick move to blame women for a real accident. No method of birth control is 100% effective. It’s like you’re implying women are inherently deceptive and selfish.
Jack
I agree completely with Tara.
That said, I’ve also been on Fred’s end of the “decision”. I’ve faced the prospect of a woman having a kid I didn’t want* and being a selfish monster about it.
Still, women have to worry about “fire and forget” guys at least as much as guys have to worry about “hatch and latch” women.
In those “holy shit” moments the foreshortening of your future is very unpleasant. I imagine that’s true for everyone.
* A case of a lunatic breakup followed by a late period. I would never ask a woman to get an abortion.
Kyla
I agree that this model is a bit simplistic: it doesn’t include social pressure to either “not do this” to a guy by forcing him to pay child support or to “give” a spouse a kid if they want one, nor the common suspicion that women who have children while on birth control may have done it on purpose, which creates pressure to abort to prove they didn’t.
Still, it’s true that being pro-choice for men does require the acknowledgment that in the end it’s not your decision, it’s hers. And yet it’s surprising how few men even ask their partners what they’d do if they got pregnant. It seems like that’s something they’d want to know.
Fred
1) Yes, this is my view and not a joke.
2) Yes, this is a simplistic view of the decision. I know there other factors that come into the decision other than just, ‘am I going to have a baby or have an abortion.’ In the end this is what the decision comes down to, even if there are other extenuating circumstances.
3) I know that women don’t make this decision lightly and I know that they take the mans thoughts into consideration when making the decision. As Kyla said, in the end the decisions is the womans, not the mans.
4) I know that birth control does not work 100% of the time and I understand that both pregnancies could have been an accident. If taken correctly the failure rate of the pill alone is about 1-2% a year. This means the chance that they both accidentally got pregnant at the same time is about 0.04%.
5) In long term relationships it often falls on the womans shoulders to look after the birth control. Any man that cares should take a more active role.
6) Kyla is correct, that this isn’t something that is discussed enough between partners. This is partially because of the feelings that people have around this issue of abortion and the fact that it still is a bit of a taboo subject. I certainly would like to know if I was involved with someone that was anti-abortion.
Don
Even completely accepting Fred’s analysis, which I think is fairly accurate – not so much wrong as just incomplete – I still think that it makes pro-choice to be the better position, for a man or a woman. In this analysis, with abortion available, a man could end up having and supporting a child even though he didn’t want to. Without abortion available, both the man and the woman could end up having and supporting a child that they do not want.
Even if it is a completely one-sided decision, as in Fred’s analysis, it is less bad for some people (men) to be potentially trapped in these situations than for all people (men + women) to have no choice in the matter.
Re: What Does Pro-Choice Mean For Men | MentalPolyphonics
on July 7, 2009 at 9:45 am
[...] family-planning decision table that Fred posted a while ago may abstract away a lot of nuance, but it also drew my attention to [...]